Why Is Trump Being Compared to a ‘Mafia Boss’?

hello and welcome to day 57 of trump 100 I’m Mark Stone and to start the week I’m joined by a special guest none other than editor at large at the Wall Street Journal Jerry Baker Jerry thanks for joining us thank you very much for having me pleasure to be here it seems like day 522 it does you’re right it feels like a feels like a very long time um the last time you and I saw each other uh was on Election night that was a long night at 12 hours on air it was for us both ital a long and consequential nice I think we can agree look Jerry why don’t you introduce yourself to our to our viewers and listeners thank you yeah well I’m Jerry Baker as you said I’m editor at large of the Wall Street Journal that means essentially really I write columns and commentary for the Wall Street Journal that’s kind of my day job I also host my own podcast and as you said also kindly said I write a column a weekly column for the Times um I used to be the editor-in chief of the Wall Street Journal uh until 2019 before that I was the deputy editor
previously worked also for the financial times the BBC and the times incidentally I sorry to hear about the loss of your father I was very moved by by your the piece you wrote you kind of you stopped uh talking about Trump for for one column and and reflected on your father who sounds like he had a very long life and I would Ur I would urge readers and listeners to go go and um go and read what Jerry wrote Because as a reflection of grief I thought it was very moving indeed anyway your assessment of the presidency so far Jerry you have written
about how America chose to end the Biden era you described Biden’s time as socially destructive cultural globalism postmodern progressivism and failed foreign policy interventionism um but in order to get out of that America has chosen for this revolution Donald Trump so how many weeks in we are do you think he’s an arsonist or a pragmatist I I think the way to see the first extraordinary ex frenetic eight weeks or whatever it is of this Administration is to think of primarily of the things that Donald Trump I think
was elected to do and I think those have been on the whole welcome probably by most Americans and he’s been very unquestionably effective you know in his first 10 days he probably did more than most presidents do in their first 100 days and I by that I mean he’s he’s focused on those issues immigration shutting down the Border essentially beginning the deportation of illegal migrants that’s that’s very popular partly what he was elected to do tackling the size of the government doge is uh again has its uh very
controversial elements but in it this is Elon musk’s uh departmentment musk Sor Doge Department of government efficiency the fundamental aim of cutting the size of government again is something people wanted Trump to do and I think expected him to do I think you then have you then have you know put rolling back if you like the green stuff that that that Joe Biden was associated with and really you know drill baby drill and uh developing us you America’s enormous energy resources um and doing that and doing
that very effectively rolling back the woke stuff and um you know identifying acknowledging that there is a difference between men and women and stopping men from playing transgender women from playing in girls Sports all overwhelmingly popular all very important all the things he campaigned on I think you know so so those things I think have been affect him then there’s a different then there’s a separate category of things where I think Trump is both um uh misinterpreting his mandate or just frankly ignoring his
mandate and and also so far at least um uh producing outcomes that are not desirable the first of those is obviously this tariff uh plan that he’s been pursuing not just the tariffs themselves but the kind of back and forth nature they’re on one day they’re off the next they’re on again this is Frank Frankly lunatic economic management and I think it’s going to do damage to the economy and also to Trump’s own crosss and then the other thing which I think is also uh kind of an unnecessary uh self-inflicted wound
and not just self-inflicted but inflicted on the rest of the world is his approach to Ukraine but I think he’s kind of alarmed people by how far he has gone in being essentially expressing pro-russian sentiments it’s very much a tale of two halves if you like I mean I think he’s pursuing policies that the American people voted him to pursue but I think he’s also doing things that could do enormous damage to the country and actually will not be popular Jerry has he has he surprised you with with uh
the speed with which he’s moved um and and some of the action he’s taken I’m thinking specifically about Ukraine yeah I think you we shouldn’t be surprised you there’s the famous famous line that somebody wrote back in 2016 about Donald Trump which is the most perceptive line I think certainly at the time and for much of the time since which is that you know kind of his political opponents take him literally but not seriously and his supporters take him seriously but not literally the people especially on the
left and a lot of the media didn’t really take Donald Trump seriously we are now in the position I think though where you know perhaps you know we should have learned to take Donald Trump a little more liter in a lot of the things that he said during the campaign or or during the last few years I haven’t really been surprised that Donald Trump has W um tried to end the war in a fundamentally pro-russian way if you like I’m sort of simplifying horribly but but I think the fact that he’s put all of the pressure on Ukraine
to end the war and none on Russia shouldn’t be a surprise he’s never ever ever given any indication whatsoever that he thinks anything other than than of Vladimir Putin that he’s you know that he’s a friend a partner he likes him he admires him and also by the way all the history that he has with Vladimir zilinski suggests that he despises him and that also that he generally admires power and strong men and all of that so we shouldn’t be surprised that he’s done that with with with Putin the same with NATO Mark I
mean Trump has been consistently highly critical of NATO so I think again Perhaps Perhaps some of the actual you know instantiations of this sort of of this enmity that he has towards Western Europe have been a little bit shocking but I don’t think think we should really be surprised at all that this is where he’s uh this is where his his sentim sentiments are and where he wants to take foreign policy it seems to me that you know that old adage that that you referenced there seriously seriously but not literally um it seems
to me that in this second iteration of trump um I guess the improbability of his return he he he he his comeback has been so extraordinary that he now has such Supreme confidence that it’s kind of the case now that you sort of have to take him literally and seriously he he really you know some of the stuff that that we would never have had on our Bingo cards um a few weeks ago that is now happening you know it’s it’s it’s pretty extraordinary stuff you know Annex in Greenland Canada 51st state zilinsky the dictator Ukraine
started the war deporting Palestinians buying Gaza I mean how much of that did you have on your bingo card again I mean the the seriously literally problem is remains a challenge does he really really intend for Canada to the 51st state I still you know maybe you know I I I stand to be proven horribly wrong as uh you know the the 82nd Airborne uh starts uh you know seizing um key parts of Toronto in the next 48 hours or whatever but I you know I I still think that’s not gonna happen okay I still think he’s not going to take even seize
Greenland with its 25,000 people let alone Canada with it tens of millions of people I think he does see you know the world a world of great Powers he does not believe at all in the kind of liberal International order in which you know countries play by certain rules but we still generally believes that there is a rules-based International System animated by ideas of sort of sovereignty and Justice and fairness and all of this kind of stuff he doesn’t believe in that doesn’t believe in that at all he
believes in power raw power more a more malevolent way of putting it if you like someone’s put it quite well is that it’s a bit like kind of a Mafia Boss right I mean he controls his family some you know he has rivals but he kind of respects the Rival families he doesn’t kind of you know get into fights with the Rival families because he knows that may not end well but what he does do is he gets into fights with people he can get into fights with I you know smaller guys that can be bullied and sort of
pushed around and I think there is an element to that of that Trump this raw power is the animating F animating dimension of sort of the way in which he views the world but but so where does that leave the rest of us then if if we’ve got this kind of mafia boss in charge of of the United States where raw power is is is his motivation not rule of law um you know where does that leave us Europe has been kind of living an illusion for the last 2030 years which is that it didn’t need any military power the world was peaceful you know
famous American historian wrote a book 20 years ago subtitle of which was you know Europe Americans are from Mars Europeans Are from Venus and I think that idea that we lived in this this world of Comedy where war was a thing of the past and everybody would get by and we’d all play by International rules you it was a nice kind of brief elude from history that we did enjoy for perhaps 10 or 20 years but I think Europeans have been Liv I think been living in that deluded sort of fantasy world for a long time and you know set aside what you
think about Trump’s rhetoric and behavior that is a reality and I think the Europeans are starting now finally finally to come to terms with this and the sort of shock therapy that Trump is providing you know intentionally or otherwise is having the effect that uh that that that it needs to have I said a moment ago that you you are not a um you don’t have an existential view or didn’t have an existential view of trump but but given what you’ve just said um have you changed changed that view over the
past few weeks me do you still think Trump is better for America and better for the world uh than the than the um the Biden years uh it’s a I don’t know honestly this International approach this this I wrote a column last week asking sort in the Wall Street Journal asking sort of when kind of serious-minded Republicans were going to develop a spine and stand up some of this stuff this this constant sort of trashing of neighbors and partners and allies like Canada or indeed like Western Europe but to treat
Western Europe to treat Canada uh in this way to treat um European countries who for whatever their flaws are much more closely aligned with us values and interests to treat them like that and sort of somehow to embrace the authoritarian to treat to to claim that um you know Vladimir zinsky that Ukraine started the war against Russia and that is somehow is responsible for the Carnage there that I mean that is that yeah that goes much further than than than even I thought would happen it’s doing real damage to America I that that
that I think in the end you know again forget the kind of almost if we can the sort of moral Dimension to this and so the the repugnance of some of the language tariffs like this proposing tariffs and implementing tariffs and damage and starting a trade War like this is not in this country’s interest um siding with Russia fundament Al in the end and undermining NATO even if NATO is you know on a living on borrowed time is not in America’s interest yes he has gone further in a way that I on these on these strategic issues and
international economic issues that I think are harming America so yeah while I still think that that that the Biden years were pretty awful in terms of uh what was what they promoted and what the the kind of the ideals that they they were associated with I do worry that Trump is in the process of also really weakening America in in the world because in the end an America that doesn’t have any friends other than maybe Vladimir Putin and C ping is not gonna be a power it’s not gonna be a powerful country I I was reflecting on
our our election night show um earlier on uh and I remember you characterized the mood in the studio at one point as being akin to a wake I think yeah yeah um I I think it was more A vibe of circumspection against your your bullishness to be honest um but you you were bullish about Trump 2.0 you seem to think it was going to it was going to be fine and yet what you’ve just said makes me think there have been moments over the past few weeks where you have quietly gone oh my goodness I I did not I did not expect this this is not the
way I thought it was going to go absolutely no question I don’t think Trump is destroying um America’s uh sort of global power or Global standing I think he’s doing it a lot of damage and maybe as I say that’s sort of short-term damage that can be justified by these longer term uh successes if he gets them but yeah I think it’s fair to say that um again while he pursues policies on the domestic front but I think by and large um uh what the country needs and I think in some ways what the West needs
if you think about the immigration and the woke stuff and the role of government all in my view very very benign uh activities by Trump if he does that great and if he can also somehow secure American power while without betraying um you know countries have supported America also good but I’m certain it’s fair to say that I’m I’m more doubtful on the second part of that than than I was six months ago which which member of the White House cast of Trump’s team has most surprised you would you say I think Trump is so
dominant in this Administration in a way that he wasn’t in the first Administration nobody really matters Mark right now I mean it’s yeah I’m exaggerating so true you know but nobody really has that role Marco Rubio he’s reduced the you know the role of secretary of state from the role of a sort of a FedEx delivery guy just s traveling around the world delivering Trump’s messages to people it’s there’s no there’s no one with this with the authority frankly with the backbone that
seems to be offering any kind of resistance to him if you want a particular name I mean obviously the man who has probably been the most consequential so far and I think could still be real trouble for Trump is of course is of course Elon Musk and and the Doge thing thought thought Doge was going to be a great opportunity to really kind of reform government to really um you know to get government off people’s backs to opportunity to deregulate yes cut cut the size of government do all that stuff instead this kind of just random slashing of
government departments I think and and employees I think he going to have tremendously tremendously negative consequences so so in consequential terms maybe musk but overall my my my argument would be it’s all Trump and that’s all it’s all Trump who’s going to be the first um casualty o o of the administration so everybody kind of continues to think that the do that the the musk Trump relationship can’t survive well that’s that’s the the liberal media wants that to happen they’re waiting for that to happen and I
think that’s one reason why it may not happen they’ll make it last I agree with you Trump relies on musk and his you know an ex and his money and everything else and musk relies on Trump for you know a his profile and B no doubt all the kind of uh advantageous business dealings he’s going to get um so I think so I think that will survive look I I I I do as cruel as I being about Marco Rubio if things if things go on this track with Canada with Ukraine with with with with Russia I think at some point
even Marco Rubio must have some dignity and sort of sense of self-respect Le self-respect left so so you know again we’re taking bets on who would go first I think it’s possible that Rubio might be the one as he’s clash with musk famously in the Oval Office it doesn’t look good for Rubio right now and I right be surprised if I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s gone with a year yeah he he he looked deeply uncomfortable in the zilinsky over office moment the other question mark will be over some of
the economic team I mean if things get really bad as they could I’m I’m not completely convinced we’re going to have a recession although I think the odds are rising the market uh financial markets have obviously been in some turmoil if Trump really persists with these tariffs though I think the chances are the us will go into possession and then he’ll then he’ll need have somebody to blame I mean for all this talk this rather Brave talk oh you know we got to accept a little bit of pain for a bit of
long-term gain if we get to a point later this year where unemployment if it’s edging up towards 5% if we get some data that show the economy is actually tipped in recession if the market continues to fall people’s pensions are undermined heads are going to have to roll I don’t know I don’t I mean I think Scott Besson there may be tensions there Howard lutnick the kind of sort of ridiculously kind of performative Commerce Secretary has been out there trying to be more trumpian than Trump on the Tariff stuff I mean so
I would look I would watch there too if the economy you know does as it seems quite possible it will in the next six months you know start to really send some you know red flags up then I think there might be some pressure on some of the members of the economic team really good to get your your views on things 57 days in um what a ride it has been so far thanks so much Jerry thank you Mark thanks for having me well that’s all for day 57 of trump 100 thank you very much for listening thanks too for sending us
your questions for yesterday’s Q&A episode it was a lot of fun uh and we enjoy answering your questions so send them through the course of the week Trump 100 sky. uh we’ll do another episode at the weekend big week ahead of course Focus will be on um Ukraine uh Yemen as well that was the surprise over the weekend uh Trump ordering um what may well be a sustained period of attacks against houy rebels in Yemen um that certainly doesn’t fit with his America First approach or does it uh we’ll be delving into that over the
course of the week um do make sure you follow our feed too so you never miss an episode uh thanks for joining us and we’ll be back tomorrow for day 58 of trump 100 bye-bye for now